[suggestion] artifacts scaling and diminishing returns

Discussion in 'Time Clickers' started by Timmy, Oct 26, 2015.

  1. Timmy

    Timmy Rookie

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    just a thought i had earlier today... it might sound like too big a change, but bear with me for a few more lines ;)

    the problem with the current artifact system is actually two-fold:
    each new level contributes less and less the more you have, but also, you pay each new one more and more.
    e.g. the 101th level contributes 1%, but costs (idk, about) 500 times more than the first (?)

    a great improvement would be to have only one of these two downsides
    so to speak, i'm suggesting to make it so that, for a selection of suitable artifacts, each and every level costs the same amount of :timecube: (after a certain point though, otherwise starting off would be really really painful), and the max level is raised to ten times the current one or even more (like 4995 or 9995 for the weapon DPS artifact instead of 495)

    suitable artifacts would be those whose max level can be raised virtually indefinitely without causing much trouble, so weapon and team DPS would be suitable ones, but colour->rainbow conversion ones would not

    so the further you get into the game, still the more you pay for the same percentile bonus, but at least that bonus is somewhat meaningful, as opposed to what we get now with the two-fold diminishing returns

    let's throw in some numbers! let's say you warp for 10k :timecube:, and you spend all of them on the pulse pistol DPS artifact and jump from level 160 to level 210 (+31%). after some time you warp for 100k :timecube:, and again spent it all on the same artifact, but this time you jump from 1750 to 2250 (500 levels, 10x the first jump because they all cost the same and you now warped for 10x :timecube:). well now those 500 levels contribute to about +29%, which is still a good boost for the next timeline, and comparable with the first warp, but obtaining that same percentile bonus costed a lot more than it did earlier

    P.S.
    on a side note, having weapon DPS and team DPS multiply each other instead of just summing up, would be a pretty big deal already... as the team one is worded right now, "multiply team dps by x", it was intuitive for me (and apparently others) to assume that whatever x was, team DPS would be multiplied by that after applying any other multiplier... if anything, please reword it in order for it to describe the effect more accurately, like "add a x modifier to each weapon's individual DPS", because as it read now, it is just misleading
     
  2. Proton

    Proton Administrator
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    Sounds like this could be similar to this idea: http://www.timegamers.com/threads/suggestion-a-tier-system-for-damage-and-gold-artifacts.282/

    It addresses the same problem (the linear scaling).

    It's interesting that we are seeing this comment start to appear more. The veterans are getting deep into the game and finding the limits.

    The one hard limit we have is wave 4275, which is where the Boss HP exceeds the value of a double. So one concern we have is allowing unlimited upgrades without unlimited gameplay. Maybe a new game+, or maybe find a way to make the max wave go higher (possibly using numbers bigger than doubles if the performance penalty is worth it).
     
  3. Nukemarine

    Nukemarine Rookie

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    One potential solution to that hard limit is make it where one needs to defeat a number of bosses in the set time limit. That's been done many times in video games as a cheap way to make the levels harder. Just have two bars, one bar is current boss HP while the other is total bosses left to kill. With overpower, I think the max kill rate is 300/minute so should be interesting. Heck, even spread out the :timecube: and :weaponcube: hp and reward between all the bosses in the set.
     
  4. Timmy

    Timmy Rookie

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    yes it is, but i preferred to leave hellbent's thread clean of other topics, for similar they may be, so i opened a new one
    he kind of asked for it to stay 'clean' at the beginning of the thread, i'll quote literally from there "I'll try to keep this short and sweet."

    speaking of limits, i had a similar problem on a code some time ago, where i needed much larger numbers than a double would allow, i have no idea how difficult it would be to implement it in time clickers, but what i had to do was to separate significant digits from the order of magnitude.

    this basically allows you to use numbers as large as 10**(unsigned integer upper limit)

    let's say 1.234567e80123, it just splits in a 1.234567 float and a 80123 integer

    then, 1.234567e80123 + 1.0e3434 would require a check on the order of magnitudes like 80123-3434>6 you just don't do anything and stick to the highest magnitude one (which can be checked by the sign of the difference, so in this case it would be 1.234567e80123 of course). if the difference in magnitude was instead smaler than 6, you would just scale them and use their relative magnitudes, so let's say 2.22222e80123 + 3.33333e80120, the latter is 1000x smaller, so you scale it down (by 80123-80120 orders) and the summation would be 2.22222+0.0033333, with 80123 as the power of ten

    even simpler for multiplication, so 1.234567e80123 * 3.0e3434 would be 1.234567*3.0 and the power of ten would be 80123+3434

    eventually, digits would exceed 10. and mess up everything, but provided you always want floats smaller than 10., it is easy to correct them all... worst case scenario is 9.9999*9.9999 (regardless of magnitudes) which gives 99.998. you just check after every operation whether or not the float is >10 and correct it by that. if it is, divide the float by 10. and increase the magnitude by 1, otherwise you do nothing

    it worked just fine for me, but it is indeed more expensive as it takes several lines of code to be executed just for a mere summation, instead of just n + m, but it checks out for really large numbers!
    but... i guess it would be a real pain to implement at this point?
     
  5. Proton

    Proton Administrator
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    I see, yeah separate threads can keep it clean. We read all of them anyway.

    There would be some pain, but I think it could be done. Perhaps with something like BigInteger, or some library like it.

    The question is if the time/effort is best put to making the waves go higher, or is there some special way the game could change even after Wave 4000. Some kind of new phase, sort of like how Weapon Cubes gave you something else to look forward to. Possibly a boss attack like @Nukemarine mentioned. And maybe beating those bosses drops you something special that can be used in the next Timeline.
     
  6. Timmy

    Timmy Rookie

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    i really don't have an answer for that, i just try to contribute to the brainstorming with what i can

    it would be way too esay for me to say 'this has to be done' or 'that has to be done' or suggest whatever code/gimmick change, because i wouldn't have anything to lose, but i can only guess how hard it must be to recieve conflicting feedback from left and right, and yet have to make a move anyway

    the code thing though, it just always baffled me that all of the clicker games i played had this hard level cap with the variable maximum size, thus not allowing for actual competition for max level reached because there always IS a max level you can't get beyond, so i kinda had to get that one off my chest as a suggestion/rant toward all clicker games i ever played just for the sake of my own sanity ;)
     
  7. Proton

    Proton Administrator
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    Yep, figuring out future directions for the game is an interesting process. We don't do something until it feels right, and explore all kinds of strange ideas.

    The crazy thing is how we can convince ourselves an idea is completely awesome, then the next day think it was crazy. Allowing ideas to grow and fail is an important & fun part. We always try to separate ourselves from the ideas (so it's not personal if the idea is attacked), survival of the fittest.

    Multiplayer & Clans are 2 big features we want to do, and it's entirely possible that a wave cap of 5000 would work fine. We could just do multiple planets like how AdCap handles it. So when a clan fully mines a planet, they can move onto a harder one (all team dps is 20% lower, maybe because of the planet's atmosphere... or time dilation effects to due gravity..) Maybe you need to work together to build a shuttle launch station capable of reaching another planet by contributing Time Cubes...
     
  8. Timmy

    Timmy Rookie

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    that actually sounds like a pretty cool long term plan to me

    though, i'd humbly advise the use of a different currency for 'space travel'-related issues instead of :timecube:, hopefully a currency not bound to time warp, or even gold itself

    what i'm getting at is, a deep runner and a reset-currency farmer will have about the same DPS at the same wave
    but a deep runner will usually stack DS-like bonuses and have 10-100 times less reset-currency compared to reset-currency farmers, so basing multiplayer/clan progress exclusively on reset-currency would force any deep runner to change playstyle in order to take part to it, possibly at the expense of his/her enjoyment of the game

    if clans are to be autonomous and meant to group people with similar playstyles, that would mean that entire clans of people who like to deep run would have to change the way they play entirely in order to play the new content

    i'm saying this because, talking about other games, clans were introduced on clicker heroes along with clan-exclusive bosses... damage done to such bosses was solely dependent on the reset-currency, regardless of the wave or current DPS of the player, which i understand was the easiest choise for the devs, but ultimately believe to be bad design for part of the community, which indeed had to either change playstyle or give up the new clan/raid content altogether

    EDIT:
    i find this deep runners vs. currency farmers issue to be quite controversial, and can see how difficult it must be to handle on your side. all i wanted to express is that a currency farmer can start a deep run anytime, while a deep runner loses all his/her progress (DS) at the first reset, so if clan mechanic could not discriminate anyone based on their playstyle, that would be great :D just that ;)
     
    #8 Timmy, Oct 28, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2015
    Proton likes this.