[Suggestion] A Tier System For Damage And Gold Artifacts

Discussion in 'Time Clickers' started by Hellbent, Oct 26, 2015.

  1. Hellbent

    Hellbent Elite

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    I'll try to keep this short and sweet.

    I would love to see something done about the diminishing returns that plagues most artifacts as you invest in them. Sure in the begining buying one of them will 2x that item, but as you build it up it takes more and more to 2x it again.

    So what I propose is a sort of tier system, where once you get a artifact to a certain level the effect that it has is increased.

    For the damage artifacts I would like if it was increased by 50% of the starting multiplier for every 50 or 100 levels, and that the new mulitplier effects all the lower levels as well.

    So as an example if I had 0 - 99 it would be 1x each for the weapon artifacts and .2 for the team artifact.
    100 - 199 would be 1.5x for weapons or .3 for team.
    200 - 299 would be 2x for weapons or .4 for team
    300 - 399 would be 2.5x for weapons or .5 for team
    400 - 495 would be 3x for weapons or .6 for team

    As for the gold artifacts it would work the same way, but instead of going up every 100 levels it should be somewhere around 20ish.
     
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  2. Timmy

    Timmy Rookie

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    i like the idea, but wouldn't that be too little of a change? i mean, at max level, the bonus granted by weapon and team DPS artifacts would be just 3x the current one... that kind of enhancement is negligible at best considering the exponential scaling of everything else... just a thought:)
     
  3. Hellbent

    Hellbent Elite

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    I have it calculated as being about 9x more than it is now.


    Current Multiplier
    ------------------------------------
    Team DPS
    495 * .2 = 99 (I think it is actually 100 because it starts at 1)

    Weapon DPS (This is 499 not 495 like I had said above)
    499 * 1 = 499 + 1

    Total DPS
    500 * 100 = 50000x

    Suggested Multiplier
    ---------------------------------
    Team DPS
    495 * .6 = 297 + 1

    Weapon DPS
    499 * 3 = 1497 + (1 * 3)

    Total DPS
    298 * 1500 = 447000x

    Am I wrong?
     
  4. Dimps

    Dimps Elite

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    That wouldn't cut it either. We are speaking exponential.
    To get Overpowered, you need 1 000 000 000 times more damage, not just 10.
    So whatever change is, it should jump additional 0 or few. Otherwise it wouldn't make much difference anyway.

    Though I really like tiered system. I enjoyed every game where "just a little bit... and you are OP again!"
     
  5. Hellbent

    Hellbent Elite

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    Like I said in my original post, my thoughts are every 50 - 100 levels and the amout is not the issue, only the concept.

    If for example it was every 50 levels at the same rate of growth you would end up with it working out to be
    1,785,600x or about 36x what it is now.

    This seems a bit high to me, especially if you factor in a change to the gold artifact as well.
    I would like to ask the devs how many waves it would take for the HP of a monster to increase by 9x, or by 36x?
    Because in the end that is what it will boil down to. If you can go an extra 40 - 50 waves you will be earning the gold of thoes levels which will make buying your wepon upgrades faster which will push you to new higher levels earning more gold and so on. You could be right on the money about it not being enough, but as much as I want better returns on investments, I also don't want to suddenly create another OP farming exploit.

    One of the good things about this suggestion is that it would be supper easy to add to the game and test for balance.
     
  6. Proton

    Proton Administrator
    Developer Moderator

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    The tiered system like you describe is pretty similar to how the upgrades work for regular Team Members. Every 100 levels there is a significant boost.

    We've put level caps on some of the Artifacts mostly because of the problem you describe, the linear gains aren't worth it at some point, something else is needed to keep the game moving forward.

    I think a lot of people are ahead of me & @Kenzie in their progress, so we have yet to run into these issues, but we knew they did exist in theory. It's cool to have players scouting ahead and reporting what it feels like later in the game.

    Just thinking of how the UI could handle it, the Artifact could have little yellow dots that appear for every 100 levels.

    This would be the key. You want it to be a bumpy progression curve where at Artifact levels are something like this:
    1-10 = Very Valuable
    10-50 = Worth it
    50-75 = Meh
    75-99 = Grind
    100 = Overpowered!
    101-110 = Very Valuable
    150-175 = Worth it... etc.
     
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  7. Dimps

    Dimps Elite

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    Switch to scientific notation in game, you will see all the numbers of HP and DPS.
     
  8. Hellbent

    Hellbent Elite

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    Perhaps something along these lines?

    Weapon Artifacts
    -------------------------------
    0 - 99 = 1x per level (Base)
    100 - 199 = 2x per level (Base * 2)
    200 - 299 = 6x per level ((Base * 2) * 3)
    300 - 399 = 24x per level (((Base * 2) * 3) * 4)
    400 - 499 = 120x per level ((((Base * 2) * 3) * 4) * 5)

    Team Artifact
    -------------------------
    0 - 99 = .2x per level (Base)
    100 - 199 = .4x per level (Base * 2)
    200 - 299 = 1.2x per level ((Base * 2) * 3)
    300 - 399 = 4.8x per level (((Base * 2) * 3) * 4)
    400 - 495 = 24x per level ((((Base * 2) * 3) * 4) * 5)

    This would be a total of

    60,000 * 11,904 = 714,240,000x
    or
    14,285x what we have today

    *Once again I remind you that the values are not the important part, only the concept.
     
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  9. Timmy

    Timmy Rookie

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    that's more like it, i focused too much on your actual numbers on the main post

    i like the idea for DPS artifacts, though i would be cautious on gold ones

    the gold we gain already increases exponentially, because gold dropped does from wave to wave, so even a 10x boost to gold might end up to be too large... afterall we are talking about the crossing point between two exponential curves, if you gain gold too fast you can just outlevel your teammates and skyrocket through waves, if you gain it too slowly you struggle to upgrade them and don't progress at all

    honestly, with the recent rework to offline gold earned and rainbowball, to which each and every gold artifact contributes in a way or the other, i think gold artifacts don't even need an upgrade whatsoever
     
  10. Hellbent

    Hellbent Elite

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    This was my concern with having the damage increased by too much, I was hoping that a balance between increasing gold find and damage would make getting to the next weapon upgrade less of a grind then it is now, while at the same time not making it a run away process. Although I don't generally collect offline gold, and can't really speak to how changes in the gold find will impact that aspect, I still feel that something should be changed to deal with the diminishing returns in that tree.

    Besides dealing with the issue of diminishing returns, I don't want to make OP farming (OPF) even more powerfull than it is now. I like to be efficient with my time, and right now OPF is just too powerfull to ignore, I feel traped in using it because the alternative is no alternative at all. If this tier system is able to somehow bring the old way of gaining:timecube: up to a close balance (even if it is a slight loss in what I could make with OPF) then I would switch back. By simply increasing damage by too great of an amount will just add to OPF, this is why I feel that gold must also be changed to pick up some of the slack so that the damage increase doesnt need to be as high.
     
  11. Timmy

    Timmy Rookie

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    i see your point, but there has just been an update drastically lowering prices on artifacts' cost already, and 8 out of 11 rebalanced artifacts were about (you guessed that) gold

    if you don't want to also boost OPF in the process, i believe DPS is not the right lever to toy with...
    at some point the next starting gold artifact level will cost so many :timecube: for just about a 9.5x multiplier that those :timecube: would be better spent getting DPS up 100 times for each gun, giving you two orders of magnitude higher DPS (which is arguably more than that one more level in starting gold could) so boosting DPS wouldn't just make OPF even more viable, but it would further favour veterans over newcomers: i read somewhere on these forums 5M :timecube: aren't probably nealry enough for a OPF build, so having tiers in DPS artifacts would even further separate people who can just barely do OPF from people who can get 10k per min out of it

    the same does not hold true for gold arguments actually, because as i understand it, as soon as max OP wears off, you want to warp to be most efficient, right? so basically spend no gold in the process besides the starting one

    i'm sorry to divert a little from the original suggestion topic, but if we are talking about making 'regular' playstyle as viable as OPF without also boosting OPF itself, we need to think about how to make long runs as viable as OPF, for which i don't have a solution right on hand... though, if i may, it was proposed by someone on this site (i'm really bad at remembering names, sorry) to make DS a kind of currency... in all actuality, as long as the DS counter resets on warps, DS is actually a non-exploitable thing measuring how much time/effort you've put into a run, as you can't possibly put less than 2 hours or so between two consecutive DS (never done the math but with max cooldown reduction it should be around 2h, while the best you can get with no cooldown reduction at all would be about 4h, not that much more), so making DS more powerful of a bonus, or turning it also into a currency to purchase upgrades with (those would have to be wiped on a warp as well of course), could eventually make long runs desirable (though if you ever do something like that you might want to make the change come into effect only on the first warp after the patch, because people like me do not care much for efficiency, we do long runs for the giggles so we usually stack several DS on each single timeline, i've 33 right now and counting and that would be an unfair headstart over everyone else)