Do you OP farm?

Discussion in 'Time Clickers' started by Hellbent, Oct 24, 2015.

?

Do you OP Farm?

Poll closed Nov 14, 2015.
  1. Yes

    40.7%
  2. No

    30.5%
  3. Don't know how to

    28.8%
  1. stevie123

    stevie123 Specialist

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    I don't wanna start a discussion about this or judge it or whatever, I only want to mention something which might be interesting to consider for a possible rebalance attempt from Kenzie and Proton, since they already mentioned in another topic that they probably have to make adjustments somewhere when this OP Farming Mode turns out to be too imba.

    Looking at the graphs from all of the people in this thread who said that they do the OP Farm, you can see that nearly all of them use a script, bot or whatever you wanna call it, which gives them 24/7 playtime. Or some of them talk about it openly and share their scripts.
    Making these runs by hand will be less efficient, because you most probably won't always hit the same timewarp spot (playing something else meanwhile, be afk, ...) or you have huge offline times for sleep, work/school/..., ... . And it could become quite boring after some time, forcing you back to another playstyle.

    I repeat myself: I don't wanna discuss or judge this playstyle here and now.
    But balancing a game around "cheated progression", i.e. making the "legit progression" faster to better match the "cheated progression", would be a big downgrade for me personally. It's like I run a marathon and in the middle someone forces me to drive the second half in a car because some other people started using cars after the first 100 meters and they want me to have a similar experience or not fall behind the others too much.
    Recieving a boost is cool most of the times, but if the reason behind that is because someone else used 3rd party tools and thus everyone gets boosted, it feels wrong.

    Instead of boosting the legit players, better nerf the cheaters. Combining Start Gold and Start Wave in one artifact in their current state would kill the whole OP feature completely. Reducing the drop amounts while OP is active (story behind that: In the hectic you fail to collect all of them before you travel on) could do the trick. This would kill the high cube per minute ratio but still leave the OP feature useful, because you can still bank up hours of max damage time with it, which helps you to progress through your end waves.
    Or just leave everything as it is and let the cheater, scripter, botter, ... play the game in their way with all the consequences. But "Boo woobedi hoo, I cheat on your game and have an unnormal high cube gain rate and now it feels bad!" may not be a valid reason for a rebalance.


    Exaggerations are a stylistic element to underline my points and are not meant to be offensive.
     
    Timmy likes this.
  2. Morgath

    Morgath Advanced

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    Don't want to get into an argument with you stevie, feel free to call me a cheater if you want to. I have made my opinion in another thread that botting is a legitimate playstyle, and that is backed up by the devs.

    Its not really fair to compare the 2 playstyles and call one better than another. One uses skill and judgement to play the game as it is meant to be played if bots did not exist, the other uses all the tools at your disposal to farm or progress automatically, which incidentally is ideal for those like me who really cannot afford the time to play the game.

    I am still of the opinion that the best course of action to suit everybody is not nerfing the botters but a suggestion by one of the devs to have a clan system where you can pick and choose who you are grouped with so you can truly compare how good your playstyle is in comparison with your peers, and kick out anyone who is found to be botting for example. Failing that boost the end game in a way that bots would not really be worth it too much so that every now and again those of us who chose to farm will put our bots on hold and go for a good old fashioned speed run.

    Really the only comment I would make about yours stevie, and its not aimed as an attack, am just curious, Is why it bothers you so personally how we play? Is it because you think we are smugly sitting back and thinking we are better than you for farming more :timecube: or whatever? I don't, its just the way I want to play the game, I'm pretty sure most don't and anyone who does is a little sad, but if it keeps them happy its fine. Is it because you want the game to be fair? Fair for who? playing your way is not fair for me. I can only afford a hour at most most days, I would always be stuck at a low level and forced to just go on deep runs and set off dimension shift when I was able. Very frustrating, and I probably would lose interest in the game very quickly.

    That's all I really have to say on the matter, there's not really much else for me to say about it. It's just the way I play and thats it. Nerf it and I might end up leaving if done too badly. So you get your wish, and lose people who are enjoying the game and less likely to support the devs. Not to mention talk about it and recommend it to others.
     
  3. stevie123

    stevie123 Specialist

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    I did not want to start a discussion about that so this will be my only answer.

    I couldn't care less about rankings, the live leaderboard, clan things and other multiplayer or comparison things in this game. As you can see I refuse to pair my game with the page here, so nobody can compare his stats to mine.
    I don't like cheating in any game when it is for progress. Doesn't matter if solo- or multiplayer. In Multiplayer games cheater are just nothing more than poor little gimps, in Sologames they can do whatever they want, as long as they don't brag about "their progress".
    I know that the devs tolerate some cheating here, as long as it's no save file manipulation or other evil haxx0ring, so I have to accept it and I do accept it, as long as there is no bragging.
    And yes, I use the term cheating for everything, including scripting, botting, autoclickering, haxx0rizing, or everything else which is not intended or 3rd party tool or automatization. Even if it's tolerated, I still call it cheating. Without any negative, offensive connotation. Just to have two words to seperate between playstyles. Legit and Cheating. None of the playstyles is better or worse, no comparison.

    The thing I care about is my own game experience, which could be changed when the devs change the cube drop balancing. If there is a good reason to change it, if there needs to be a rebalance, I'm okay with it. Like I was with the augment cost rebalance. It was necessary.
    But it is not necessary to rebalance something when mostly cheater are complaining about it, because of their cheated progress and playstyle. You don't make the end boss of the shooter game stronger only because godmode and instagib cheater complain about him being too easy. You don't make other cars in the racing game faster only because cheater go with 999miles per hour and no collision mode. You don't change the currency drop balance in a clicker game only because cheater can farm 5k currency per minute because of their cheated progress which allows them to buy these many artifact levels and their automatization tools which allow them to keep it up 24/7.

    It's nothing offensive against your playstyle. Getting artifact cost informations or other things from cheater is a cool thing (while now with easy respec it's not necessary anymore), it started the rebalance discussion for the artifact costs and in the end made the game be completeable before the sun explodes, but for such balance complaints and questions like they are made with the OP Farm you have to consider that you are at a point where the majority of the legit playerbase will never get before they lose interest in the game and the few who get there have "worked hard" to reach that, or at least had enough patience. So having that OP Farm mode would either be a reward for getting to that state legitly and no change is needed or that OP Farm mode has to be killed for everyone. But boosting everyone else only to reach that state faster or to keep up with the efficiency with other run lengths and tactics is the wrong approach. Balancing the game around cheating progress is no balance. There will always be a new and even more efficient thing that cheaters can reach in no time while others are far far far far far away. Reaching something after 1 second with cheats does not mean it's unbalanced, as long as it needs a reasonable amount of time to reach it legitly.

    I hope you understand my point better now. Like I said, no discussion about legit vs cheating intended and my last answer here. I did not want to disturb the main topic of the thread, just wanted to spread my thoughts about the possible upcoming rebalance and since this thread is the newest about this topic and it gathers all profiles (-> graphs) of the ones who use it in one place, it's not the worst place to mention it.
     
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  4. Savi

    Savi Rookie

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    Using scripts or third party tools is widely accepted by the community and by developers in all clicker games I've played (Clicker Heroes, Cookie Clicker, Time Clickers and Adventure Capitalist all over 500h+ each).
    It's just a different playstyle, you personally don't have to like it. But you should also realize that balancing only around players who plays "legit" is not the way to go since that would alienate a (large?) portion of the player base.

    A good example is Clicker Heroes where you have the choice to either spec into Active/Clicker builds or going Idle/passive builds.


    EDIT: Forgot to post my original thought..
    I feel like OP farm is way too strong right now. When the patch released, I could increase my farming rate by 400% after some tweaking. There are currently no other way to play if you want to be efficient.

    Merging starting gold + starting wave is one idea.
    Promoting deep runs by increasing cube drop rate exponentially on higher waves could also work.
     
    #24 Savi, Oct 28, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2015
  5. Dimps

    Dimps Elite

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    The thing in "Op farm" is that you don't have to do anything at all, just time warp once in a 20 minutes.
    This is the most rewarding circumstances for a manual player.

    Press some buttons once, come back 20 minutes later, time warp.
    If you are too late, it's ok, 10^10 dps difference will make you push forward for at least another 20 minutes probably.

    If anything, OP farm favors manual players.
     
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  6. Muche

    Muche Elite

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    It seems to me that the OP farm is the result of newly created :timecube: curve.
    Before OP, there was only one curve - higher wave meant higher :timecube: reward, thus with high enough DPS higher :timecube:/min.
    OP sped up early waves, creating new curve that is much steeper while the OP bar is at 100% and then gradually evens out as the OP wears off. Were there no warp+setup overhead, the most effective OP farm would be the last minute of 100% OP.

    So if you want to get rid of the OP farm, you have to make sure that the curve's gradient is appropriate at all points (e.g. by lowering the :timecube: gain), or those points are not accessible (e.g. merging starting gold+wave - this effectively kills OP altogether; or lowering max starting gold).
     
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  7. Dimps

    Dimps Elite

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    I don't know why OP was introduced in the first place. To "skip early levels fast if you are powerful enough" there is an artifact, "starting wave".
    You buy it.

    OP is just a "ok you don't need this artifact, EVER".
     
  8. PaPa_Panda

    PaPa_Panda Elite

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    I'm OP farming now. It close to doubled my cubes per minute.
     
  9. Muche

    Muche Elite

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    Here is my experience:
    Before OP - Starting from low waves allows you to bank ability time so you can reach higher waves, but this is less effective (:timecube:/min-wise) than starting from higher waves - you have to use starting wave artifact to be effective.
    After OP - Starting from low waves allows you to bank ability time so you can reach higher waves, and its effectiveness is the same as starting from higher waves - the player can decide which playstyle fits them more, longer runs or shorter runs.

    So introduction of OP initially increased the number of effective builds.
    That is, until OP farm buld was discovered, then it became the one build to be used to be effective.

    If you think the starting wave artifact is useless, you can remove it, OP farm build's effectiveness drops, but might be still higher than long run, solving nothing.
     
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  10. CubeClick

    CubeClick Rookie

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    Muche, you really have a point here. OP gives more options, specially for deep runs, but unfortunately, one of these options is way too good. A good way to deal with this would be to cap the amount of cubes you can get in a run based on the duration of the run.

    For example : max number of cubes per minute of run = max wave during the run or something like that.
     
    #30 CubeClick, Oct 28, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2015
  11. Timmy

    Timmy Rookie

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    really?

    all this 'bots are fine' propaganda is just like the 'big people are beautiful' propaganda: delusional

    'cheating' is not ok with the devs, it is tolerated, they of course want their game to be played for as long as possible, they wouldn't want it to be beatable in a couple weeks, but they also want it to be played by as many people as possible, so they tolerate it because many people like it that way, and other clicker games' developers set a bad precedent of allowing it

    botters are like beta testers, they get to endgame faster and can tell what the odds are, that's actually valuable information for balancing the game

    OR it would be if they did not tend to talk as if it was normal to get that far that fast, making everything sound a lot more 'about to happen' than it really is
    i mean, we just got a :timecube:/:weaponcube: artif/augm rebalance, it makes sense to balance them at the same time because :timecube: part was buffed and :weaponcube: part was nerfed, i didn't realize it back then, i see it now
    but about that :weaponcube: rebalance, had any non-botter/scripter/autoclicker player actually gotten even remotely close to 100/100/100 :weaponcube: drop augments yet?
    i hardly think so, so it wasn't really so imminent of an issue yet, if not for some people who had been admittedly playing the game differently from what it was intended?

    although...
    if a friend of yours really wanted to play basketball but had no time to, so he assembled a robot to do it for him, would you pat him on a shoulder and say 'good job pal' or just look at him and walk away? saying a bot is ok if you don't have time to play yourself is saying it is ok to buy a MMO account with max level char/gear/gold because you don't have time to play. in other news, people using a bot in whatever other game genre is a cheater, someone who gets booted off a server, but apparently it is ok here because devs cannot prevent you from using one... right?

    you know there was a click per sec limitation at the beginning in time clicker, but the devs had to remove it because people wanted to use autoclickers, and every other clicker game allows it so why would time clicker require some actual effort?
    it is a lost cause discussing it. people will always complain, and the devs will eventually follow those who yell the loudest, which is never those who play as intended, ever
    if botters are breaking the :timecube:/min record on a daily basis, a nerf bat will eventually be forged and slammed on this game, let's wrap our heads around that and move on

    so please let's get back to the 'do you OP farm and why' topic, would ya?
     
  12. nize

    nize Rookie

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    ITT anti-scripters/botters/clickers who see themselves as legit master race players hijack the thread and throw the 'I don't mean to go off-topic' -card. How about not triggering people in the first place if you're not expecting a response. :-----------------)
     
  13. Timmy

    Timmy Rookie

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    sounds more like scripters/botters/autoclickers just get a lot defensive as soon as someone points out they are far ahead in the game than it is intended (which is an objective, irrefutable observation), thus shifting statistics, aaaaaaaaaaand also advocate for their kind apparently

    though, it is a poll thread intended for both sides to share their motivation toward or against OP farming, hence the poll and question mark in the title, so 'legit players masterrace highjack the thread' tells me you don't understand the point of this poll thread at all, and even worse, you think OPF botters ARE the master race and other kind of players should not be allowed to reply to this thread, hence the choise of such a strong verb as 'highjack'
     
  14. Morgath

    Morgath Advanced

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    Stevie, thank you for your input, it helps me understand better your point of view, and I hadn't completely contemplated how the changes may have effected your playstyle, Personally I didn't ask for these changes, I just took advantage of them.
    Timmy, nize. that is your opinion, conciser others might have other motivations than the bragging factor before you beg for the nerf stick, thats all I ask.
     
  15. Hellbent

    Hellbent Elite

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    @Timmy & Stevie123

    Would you guys mind posting a screen shot of your builds for me?
     
  16. Hellbent

    Hellbent Elite

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    Thank you, but not necessary. I would like to address Timmy and Stevie123, but I need some info before I decide how the discussion will be approached by me.
     
  17. Muche

    Muche Elite

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    Another thought:
    Since the OP farm build is effective only after certain number of :timecube: collected (tens of millions I think), this creates a progression of metagame (for every phase of the game there is a different build).

    In the very early game you warp as soon as you can and use every :timecube: gained in DPS/gold, later you can move to long run, slowly maxing :timecube: drop chance/drop amount. Some time later you gain enough :timecube: to move to OP farm build, which gives you ~3x-4x more cubes.
    If there would be a build that required hundred million cubes to work and would give you 3x-4x more cubes than OPF build, it would make the OPF build a transitional build within metagame.

    This could also solve the perceived slowdown of :timecube: gain - my impression is that :timecube: gain is linear but most artifacts costs are exponential.
     
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  18. Timmy

    Timmy Rookie

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    not to be rude but, what's to be addressed? i'm not planning on giving OPF a shot, i just expressed my view on the game and its ultimate goal, and asked for yours as a OPFer, to which another OPFer replied, providing me with a point of view and an ultimate goal i hadn't considered before, so i actually learnt something and can at least understand why would anyone spend time farming

    what came today was just out of frustration after reading all of today's posts about how cool it is to not play a game by having a script play it for you, and how everyone playing it manually is apparently some sort of loser around these forums.
    i'm not saying i don't regret replying right away without cooling down first, but you can bet i stand by each single word i wrote

    i'm deep running, yes, i can only kill like 6 or 7 bosses a day, tops, but that to me still feels more like i'm progressing through the game than it is to run a timeline a day for 200k :timecube: on end

    my build looks exactly like the build someone with 4.3M :timecube: would rock, someone who planned to do some weeks of 180k-200k :timecube:/day before going for a deep run to wave 4000, but eventually realized how great for deep runs the rework to offline/rainbowball gold was, and also had a closer look at all his artifacts and realized he was already so deep into dimishing returns that another couple millions :timecube: would have not made any difference, and thus went for a deep run right away
     
  19. Morgath

    Morgath Advanced

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    I don't think I can recall any post were someone is displaying that sort of attitude. Granted I often only have time to skim read posts sometimes. But if you have come across that sort of elitist attitude, then you are correct it is bang out of order. You should just try to ignore it if you can, but I can understand it rubbing you the wrong way.

    Maybe you could quote a few examples. And if one of those is my own, and anything I have said has upset you, I can only apologize. I definatly don't think I am better than you for using bots. I only do it because I simply do not have the time to do it any other way without slowing down to a frustrating crawl. Granted if something like the OP sytem comes along, I will take full advantage of it, but I could live without such things as long as I am progressing at some meaningful pace.

    When it comes to nerfing I would be happy if they scrapped the overcharge system because its too lopsided. My only concern is if they nerf bots to the stage where it is unplayable. And you get some poeple who want the devs to nerf them completely any way they can. The problems for me personally is that would kill the game dead for me, and lose my interest as I simply couldn't progress at anything but a maddeningly slow pace. If all else fails I don't think its feasible or even desirable to nerf automatically triggering abilities, so I could just leave it setting off dimension shift. But it would be so slow it would lose my interest, so I'd probably quit paying any attention the game. Would rather spoil the whole thing tbh.
     
  20. WhatIsScript

    WhatIsScript Spec Ops

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    Nope, I don't OP farm, but sometimes I do when I needed to get those extra:timecube: or:weaponcube:. I don't go like full strat mode to find what the best rate of farm is. I just wait till I am satisfied with the amount I got while I do other things and come back to it.

    On another note, for those that OP farm and those that don't. The only difference I see is that, one person starts of with a huge chunk of:timecube:/wc for their journey while the other doesn't. Pretty much going camping while one person has camping gear and the other has to Bear Grylls it out.