(Developer Attention Required) Game Breaking Imbalance Found

Discussion in 'Time Clickers' started by Hellbent, Oct 19, 2015.

  1. Hellbent

    Hellbent Elite

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    Attention: Proton and Kenzie.

    I would like to take a moment before you continue reading this thread to request that before you decide what action you will take to fix this issue, that you allow the community to have a chance to discuss with you what course of action should be taken. In cases like this the normal predilection is to hit the nerf button or to add some other arbitrary hurdle in a attempt to fix a problem, this often just leads to frustration from the user base. I am sure that a resonable fix is out there, please be patient in your decision and perhaps consider the options that I am sure will be posed by the people whom play your game.

    Thank You
    Hellbent.




    Have a look at my artifact setup.

    [​IMG]

    Does this look like a good setup?

    Well the truth is that this setup is earning me about 2k:timecube:/min right now(almost twice what I normaly make), and that is a problem..

    I just buy starting gold and starting level and the rest is just a waste of time.

    I hope that there can be a soloution that does not nerf or remove OP, it is a cool feature but it has some
    clear issues.
     
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  2. Mammbos

    Mammbos Rookie

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    Did you put 25 mil :timecube: on starting gold? :p that's amazing

    And you still couldn't max it? That's even more amazing ! how many levels where you able to buy?
     
  3. Hellbent

    Hellbent Elite

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    It was at 178 in that shot, but i put it to 179 just a min ago.
    I am at 3300 for Rocket and below, once I get to 3500 with all i'll start on level again.

    Might as well make what I can before a fix gets put in
     
  4. Mammbos

    Mammbos Rookie

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  5. Hellbent

    Hellbent Elite

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  6. Hellbent

    Hellbent Elite

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    I am looking for the right time to reset for this setup atm, but the rule would be that if you only have a short time at full op you need to reset the second it starts to drop, this setup I have now gives me about 15 mins at full op so I can wait a short time after it starts to drop and still gain:timecube:/min
     
  7. Muche

    Muche Elite

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    Since your runs are very short, warp+setup time is no longer negligible and has to be counted in. This drops the average to ~1800 :timecube:/min. So it's lower, but still higher than your usual.
     
  8. Hellbent

    Hellbent Elite

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    are you going off the lastest data points from my page? if so they wont tell you the whole story atm, I set a loop of 3 time values to get data points to zero in on the perfect time warp point for this new setup.

    I wont have the perfect time to warp for this set up for a few more hours, once i have enough data points whit these times i'll average them and then pick 3 new times that get closer to the ideal time.

    The 2k is based off the first calculation from the very first run with this setup which was 1988 if i remember corectly, and as for setup time and reset time they are counted in the total time. I use the end of one run until the end of the next run as my ref points.
     
  9. TheUrb

    TheUrb Spec Ops

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    One thought, although I'm sure this will be unpopular, would be to link start wave and start gold. This will still allow for OP, would remove the possibility of new player becoming "stuck" and could eliminate this imbalance.
     
  10. slowbro

    slowbro Spec Ops

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    My thoughts are probably unimportant since I'm a casual player, but I don't see a problem here. If someone wants to develop unconventional builds, for fun or for efficiency, more power to them in my opinion. :) Maybe you'll be one of the first to round 4000.

    Me I am not concerned about efficiency ... my timelines generally last like 3-7 days and I only play in short sessions. (completely irrelevant I guess, sorry)
     
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  11. Proton

    Proton Administrator
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    You're almost near the level cap of 179/200 for Start Gold. The 1.3 curve was lowered for Start Gold:
    [​IMG]

    So this is a new strategy added to 1.3, we are curious to watch how it plays out.

    It takes 30 Million :timecube: to max out Start Gold. If you can make 2000 :timecube: /min then earning 30 million would take 10 days of non-stop play. But you can't make that 2000 :timecube: /min right from the start, and I can see you have 1,311 Time Warps.

    Our goal is to get players to Wave 4000, so it's possible that this could be a valid strategy. You may have created a wave 1000-2000 Harvester Build. But to push to the later waves you would likely need to re-allocate those 30 Million :timecube: so you can push deeper with a Deep Run Build.

    The concern would be if this strategy is way more powerful than any other style. Without nerfing anything, we could make the waves above 3000 more rewarding, giving more weight to a Deep Run Build. Thoughts?
     
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  12. Mammbos

    Mammbos Rookie

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    more rewards from higher waves could be a nice reward ,although 3000 is a pretty big number :p
    2500 sounds much much better :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
     
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  13. Kuki

    Kuki Spec Ops

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    Starting Gold:
    Level n from 1 to 63: CEILING(8/27*n^3)
    Level n from 64 to 200: CEILING((76101+273899/136*(n-64)))
     
  14. stevie123

    stevie123 Specialist

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    First reaction when I read that: Please don't! :eek:


    Trying to find the right words for a longer answer ^^
    Having a breakpoint (wave 3k here) where the drops are suddenly getting higher, feels to me like a fast solution to fix something but opening more possibilities for other imbalances in the long term. The breakpoint would probably become the new "must reach" point, creating another "best build and tactic" and players might feel forced to play that way for the efficiency.
    While that wave 1000-2000 Harvester Build (official name is official :D) is something for very very very late game players (sidenote: Besides the data that we can get from script users, it's funny that only the non-legit players complain about the game being too easy/imbalanced/short/bla ^^) which is literally not possible to be built when you are not far enough, the higher drops after wave 3k could bait players to reach 3k+ too early, killing their efficiency and in the end killing their fun. Imagine a new player, who read in the chat about that higher drops and some lategame players talking about their deep runs, trying to copy that playstyle and ending up in a 5 year long deep run ....

    We already have the guaranteed drops that offer a huge incentive to reach that wave when you are getting close to it. But that's only for one wave and after that it returns to the normal drop formula. A permanent increase could only work when it applies to all drops from the very first to the very last, in my opinion. A breakpoint somewhere would create an artificial border.


    Not to mention that it would partially kill the precious drop calculator :D
     
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  15. Hellbent

    Hellbent Elite

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    stevie you hit the nail on the head there. The reason I think that this is a negative balance is because anyone that is trying to earn:timecube: would have to have a artifact setup like mine, any other setup would mean that there wheels are just spinning. There always will be a build that is something one might call "best build" but this build has so little of the normal gameplay involved in it, there is no upgrading weapons past starting gold, there is no need for rainbow balls, no need to be sure to upgrade at the right time. It is just buy starting gold and level and reset. For many this would not change the way they play, but of those people, many would feel perhaps a bit of frustration that by not doing this they are losing out on more:timecube:. Efficiency has always been going over the same levels over and over again, but this is taking it to new heights, or rather new lows.

    As for this only being for players with a lot of:timecube: to begin with, I am not 100% on that.
    I think people with much less:timecube: than I have would be able to use the same tactic, all it would require is for them to know what thier normal average:timecube:/min is and... you know what maybe I shouldnt say how to do it. It is easy to figure out but I might not be doing anyone a favor by telling how if they can't figure it out on thier own.

    I am also curious to know if anyone else has tried this yet, and if so what results they have had.
     
  16. Timmy

    Timmy Rookie

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    Proton is right in saying that's not a build you'd use to get high on waves, also to top it off, if that kind of build starts paying off as you show only if you invest millions of :timecube:s (which i assume is the case) then it's more of an end-game thing than a fully-upgraded click cannon is, so it's fine, as it takes quite a bit of time to gather so many :timecube:s in the first place

    though having :timecube: drops ramp up a bit faster, instead of increasing homogeously, would be quite encouraging
    by that i mean, we can get a guaranteed :timecube: drop at each boss, but we can only double the amount, so doesn't matter if you can get to wave 2005 or 2505, because at 2505 you get what? like 30% more :timecube:s per boss compared to wave 2005, so it's not that much more, which is a let down if you think about the effort needed to be able to get consistently to wave 2505 and compare it to the effort needed to get consistently to wave 2005

    this greatly discourages longer runs imo, if not those headed for milestones (for :timecube:s or :weaponcube:s alike)
    right now for example i'm doing a deep run (almost there) to reach wave 2750 (rather than 2540 as usual for guaranteed 750:weaponcube:s), but i get less than 900:timecube:s per boss (882:timecube:s at wave 2745), while about 500 waves ago i was already earning almost 700 (666:timecube:s at wave 2220).

    now, a difference of about 200:timecube: (882 vs 666) between two bosses 525 waves apart doesn't really make deep runs appealing, does it?
    i'm fairly behind in the game compared to some other people, but given :timecube: drops scaling, this consideration should hold true even at higher waves... not to mention i'm talking about what probably is the biggest timesink in the game, Training 5.x, which traps for ages anyone who's able to get past wave 2600

    just two more cents in the bucket though;)

    on the matter, guaranteed drops (as of milestones) are not that appealing on a strictly objective standpoint: you get about twice as many as you would from that same wave with 100/100 artifacts, so if that milestone wasn't there, you could emulate it just by getting that boss and the following one. this is because we can get drop chance up to 100%. if we could only raise it to 50%, any guaranteed drop would be a blessing, ANY, literally, but having all bosses at 100% chance, just twice the regular amount on certain 'special waves' is not what i'd call impressive

    though i agree that a systematic :timecube: boost from wave 100 onwards could be kind of game breaking...
    maybe some frequent milestones past wave 3000? how does 4x or 5x the normal amount once every 100 waves sound? wave 3100, 3200, 3300 and so on
     
    #16 Timmy, Oct 19, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2015
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  17. Dimps

    Dimps Elite

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    Yes please!

    Having an efficient lowlevel overpowered runs is fine, but that must not be the only way to be efficient. I would like myself to go as high as 4000, and I'm probably capable of doing it, but that would just set me back in the farming war. And in the end, my "was at 4k" will disappear after I time warp, but "has 60 000 000 :timecube: 30 000 000 :weaponcube:" is there to stay.

    (by the way, what's wrong with my profile? It doesn't show any data for a long time already, I have to play blind, this youngsters are catching up :)
     
  18. CubeClick

    CubeClick Rookie

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    I'm using this kind of setup, and after some optimisation, i can gain slightly more than 3k cubes per minute.
    and it's extremely simple : I don't click and i don't use the gold i gain. I just leave the game and come back 18 minutes later to warp.

    I don't complain about it. But it's true that an equivalent reward for deep runs could be a good alternative to this kind of very efficient strategy
     
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  19. Proton

    Proton Administrator
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    That led me on a bit of a side quest. It turns out the 'Expire Stats' script I created which makes sure the per-minute stats are only saved for 30 days was timing out.

    Lots of data in the database now! There's hundreds of players with over 20,000 per-minute stats. So trying to clean them all up with a single query ran too slowly. As the game gets more popular we will run into these 'growing pains'. But I think it's all fixed now :)
     
  20. Dimps

    Dimps Elite

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    Cool, thanks!

    [​IMG]
    This flat things are game dieing with exception btw.